Sir John Fogge (c.1417-1490) was Lord of the manor of Repton. His family was one of the first families in Kent, England. It was this John Fogge of Ashford who built and endowed the noble Church and the College at Ashford, Kent circa 1450, where he is also buried.
There is some uncertainty over the parents of Fogge. The most well-known source, “The Family Chronicle of Richard Fogge” shows John as the son of Sir William Fogge and an un-named daughter of William Wadham (his second wife). “The Antiquary” states that he was the son of Sir William and his first wife, a daughter of Sir William Septvans. However, Rosemary Horrox argues that he was the son of another John [and Jane Cotton]; Sir William’s younger brother. Horrox also states he must have been born about 1417, since he was of legal age in 1438, and came to prominence when he inherited the senior line of the family by February 1447.
John Fogge was for certain the grandson of Sir Thomas Fogge, who died in 1407. Fogge was buried in Canterbury Cathedral. He had been a soldier and courtier under King Richard II and his successor, the Lancastrian usurper, King Henry IV. Fogge’s standing in Kent was owed much to his early career as a Captain of war in France. His military service began in the retinue of Henry, Duke of Lancaster, the King’s lieutenant in Brittany from 1356. Like the Parrs’, he served John, Duke of Lancaster; the third surviving son of Edward III. He was of service to Lancaster in Spain in 1386. It is uncertain for how long Fogge had been a retainer of Lancaster, but on 13 June 1372, the Duke formally retained him for life. Lancaster made mention of Fogge’s good service in the past and indicated by the size of the annuity granted (100 marks) that he ranked him high in his esteem. Under Lancaster, Fogge was Captain of Calais among other high postings.
Thomas Fogge’s eldest son, John, came to the court of the Lancastrian King Henry IV. John served on a number of commissions and was appointed Sheriff of Kent in 1453. John would continue to hold favor under the new King and gained the esteemed office of Comptroller of the Household in 1460 and keeper of the wardrobe to Henry VI in the last year of his first reign. John was knighted by the King in 1461.
In 1461 and 1463, under the Yorkist King, Edward IV, John Fogge was elected to Parliament as knight of the shire for Kent. Fogge became a Privy Councillor. From 1461-68, he was Comptroller and Treasurer of the Household [later known as Lord Chamberlain under the Tudor monarchs]. Fogge would continue that role for the Prince of Wales (later King Edward V). In 1461, Fogge was granted the office of keeper of the writs of the Court of Common Pleas. He took part in the investigation of the possible treason of Sir Thomas Cooke. In 1467, he was MP for Canterbury and Sheriff of Kent, again, in 1472 and 1479. He represented Kent in parliament in 1478 and 1483. It is thought that Fogge may have accompanied Edward into exile. For Fogge’s continued loyalty to the Crown, he was awarded the Constableship of Rochester Castle, the keeping of Hothfield Manor, and the manors of Towton and Dane, which had formerly belonged to the Lancastrian loyalist, Sir Thomas Brown.
From 1473, he was on the council and one of the tutors of Prince Edward (the future King Edward V). He undertook administration of his property and was made Chamberlain jointly with Sir John Scott. Fogge’s kinsman, Anthony, Earl of Rivers, was appointed the Prince’s Governor. Fogge’s Haute kinsmen also rose in royal favor; Richard Haute had also become one of Prince Edward’s tutors and councilors and by 1483 Haute was controller of this household.
In 1483, he supported Richard Guildford in Kent against Richard III, this rising being in support of Edward V, and becoming part of the unsuccessful Buckingham’s rebellion. This was despite an apparent reconciliation with the king as soon as he came to the throne, after Fogge had taken sanctuary in June 1483 at the time of Richard’s coup in Westminster Abbey. The rising was blocked at Gravesend by John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk; and the rebel force retreated. The king acted mercifully once order had been restored; but Fogge later did have lands in Kent confiscated and given to Sir Ralph Ashton.Throughout the many conflicts which arose with the War of the Roses, Sir John was lucky enough to survive, especially when Richard III came to the throne. Sir John was a supporter of Henry Tudor and reportedly had a role in the Battle of Bosworth field. Because of this, Sir John’s lands that were attained during King Richard’s reign were restored as soon as King Henry VII came to power.
There is some confusion as to which wife he married first; they were both named Alice. It is thought that Alice Haute was Fogge’s first wife. His second wife was Alice de Criol or Kyriell, the daughter of the Yorkist Sir Thomas de Kyriell who was killed at the second battle of St. Albans. This marriage brought him Westenhanger Castle.The “History of Ashford” states that Alice de Kyriell was Fogge’s first wife and that Alice Haute was his subsequent marriage. However, it then states that Alice was formerly married to a Woodville; which is not true. She was the daughter of a Woodville.
Fogge’s switch from the Red Rose of Lancaster to the White Rose of York was most likely due to his marriage into either the Woodville or Kyriel family; both families joined the Duke of York [later King Edward IV] in 1460. Fogge, Sir William Haute [father of Alice], and Sir Thomas Kyriel [father of Alice] were part of the first group to join the Yorkist earls when they arrived at Kent in 1460.
Fogge’s first wife was Alice Haute or Hawte (born circa 1444), whom he had married c. 1465. She was the daughter of Sir William Haute of Hautsbourne, Kent (c.1390-1462) and Joan Woodville, sister of Richard Woodville, 1st Earl Rivers; and as so Alice was first cousin to Elizabeth Woodville, queen consort to Edward IV, and mother to Elizabeth of York. When Elizabeth became queen, she brought her favorite female relatives to court. As Lady Alice Fogge, Alice was one of the queen’s five ladies-in-waiting during the 1460s.
According to Susan James and Linda Porter, Fogge and Alice (Haute) were great-grandparents to the last queen consort of King Henry VIII, Katherine Parr, through their daughter Joan, Lady Greene. Their other children included Sir John Fogge of Repton Manor and Margaret, Lady Stafford (mother of Sir William Stafford, husband to Mary Boleyn).
His son Sir Thomas Fogge, Sgt of Calais was the son of his second marriage to Alice Kyriell. His daughters Anne and Elisabeth were probably from the second marriage as well.Illegitimate Daughter of Richard III Theory
There is a very slight possibility that Richard III’s mistress (or one of them) and mother to his illegitimate daughter was the sister-in-law to Lady Fogge. Katherine was the wife of James Haute (son of William Haute and Joan Woodville). Little is known about her; however in 1477 Richard in a grant gave to Katherine Haute 100 shillings per annum for life (DL29/637/10360A). There is no apparent reason for Richard to give her an annuity, and her Christian name is of course that of Richard’s illegitimate daughter, an uncommon one in the Yorkist Neville families. All of this may of course be far from the truth, although it is suggestive.
Fogge died in 1490. The tomb in which he’s buried stands on the North side of the altar between the chancel and Fogge Chapel. The original ornaments have been stripped, but there were originally brass effigies of his two wives, Alice Kyriell and Alice Haute. The mantels of the wives were fastened with a rose. At their feet were crouched dogs with knotted leading strings. On the south side of the tomb had been enriched with Gothic arches where three shields were found; Kryiell, Haute, and Valoignes impaling Fogge. Fogge’s effify was attired in rich armor and decorated with the Yorkist collar of suns and roses with the white lion of Marche. His head reclined on his helmet, adorned with mantlings and crest. At his feat sat an Italian greyhound. On the north side the center ornament was an angel supporting an inscription panel with an endless circle formed of rose sapling sticks firmly bound together perhaps to show the stability of the family unity, the vitality of which is indicated four small sprouts of rose branches with leaves and blossoms. Four large bosses of the united Roses proclaimed a Yorkist’s acquiescence in the peaceable conclusion of the commotion.
Coat of Arms
Their arms, Argent, on a fess, between three annulets, sable, three mullets, pierced of the first, which coat is carved in stone on the porch of Ashford church, on the roof of the cloysters at Canterbury, and in several windows of the cathedral there.
- Drawings by Sir Edward Dering, 17th Century, published in Archaelogica Cantiana, Vol 2, 1859 [out of copyright].
- Charles Ross, Richard III (1981), p.106.
- J. R. Lander, Conflict and Stability in Fifteenth-century England (1971), p. 180.
- Arelene Okerlund, Elizabeth, England’s Slandered Queen (2006), p. 104.
- Paul Murray Kendall, Richard III (1972), p. 261.
- Ross, p. 112.
- Michael Bennett, The Battle of Bosworth (1987), p. 41 and p. 43.
- Kendall p. 271.
- Kendall p. 276.
- Ross, p. 119.
- The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 95.
- Rosemary Horrox. “Fogge, Sir John“, on the website of the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
- Peter Fleming. “Haute family“, on the website of the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography
- ‘Parishes: Stanford’, The History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent: Volume 8 (1799), pp. 63-78. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=63459&strquery=fogge Date accessed: 05 December 2012.
- E.W. Allen. “The Antiquary,” Vol. 3-4, 1873.
- Sheila Sweetinburgh. “Later Medieval Kent, 1220-1540,” Boydell & Brewer, Nov 18, 2010. pg 258.
- Archaelogica Cantiana, Vol 5, 1863
- Douglas Richardson. “Plantagenet Ancestry: A Study In Colonial And Medieval Families,” 2nd Edition, 2011. pg 219-25.
- The History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1386-1421, ed. J.S. Roskell, L. Clark, C. Rawcliffe., 1993.
- Edward Hasted. ‘The town and parish of Ashford’, The History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent: Volume 7 (1798), pp. 526-545.
- Barbara J. Harris. “English Aristocratic Women, 1450-1550 : Marriage and Family, Property and Careers: Marriage and Family, Property and Careers,” Oxford University Press, Jul 26, 2002. pg 218.
- Rev. A. J. Pearman. “History of Ashford,” H. Igglesden, 1868.
- Peter Hammond. “His Illegitimate Children,” Dr Rosemary Horrox notes. Richard III Society: Richard III — His Family.
Thanks for a very well researched article. Enjoyed.
It makes very little sense that John would have married for the first time at about age 48. A September 2016 Geni post has Alice de Criol/Kyriell as the mother of John b. 1442 and her date of death as 1456. Alice Haute would then be his second wife, and her date of death in both Geni and Wikitree is given as 16 August 1512.
To be a good writer, it would be helpful to learn how to pluralize last names as well as what apostrophes, commas and semicolons are used for.
I wrote that article a long time ago. I did not use Geni or Wikitree as those are amateur websites done by unknown people. The dates that I have found come from old books which seem to be confused as to who John married first. All I know is that Alice Haute is listed as an ancestress of Queen Katherine Parr and I have done a lot of research trying to find the connection.
The criticism over my writing is not needed. I’m not sure why you would come to someone’s article and criticize their writing style. If you want to be rude, please don’t comment. Thank you.
It would seem that Sir Thomas Fogge, d. 1512, buried at Ashford, was the son of Alice Haute as gathered from a drawing of his tomb that bears the Fogge impaling Haute. Sir Thomas Fogge’s wife Eleanor Browne is also on the tomb with her arms. She was descended from the Brownes of Betchworth, Surrey and the Fitzalan Earls of Arundel. She, however, was not buried beside Thomas Fogge nor by her second husband Sir William Kempe of Olantigh, Kent. She died about 1560 when her will was proved and had served at court as lady-in-waiting to her great-niece Queen Catherine Parr as well as Queen Mary Tudor until she was retired in advanced years. I am a descendant of Elizabeth Browne Fogge by her second marriage to Sir William Kempe. Here is the source for the tombs at Ashford with mention of the Brownes. I hope this is of help in solving the maternity of Sir Thomas Fogge:
Wow, thanks. Great research! I appreciate it and will take a look. You talk about Elizabeth being a lady to Queen Catherine. Where is that info found? She must have been quite old by then.
Would you happen to know what happened to Lady Joan Green (Fogge)? I can’t find much on her other then her being mother to Lady Maud Parr and Lady Anne Vaux (Born Green).
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